Fabian Geyrhalter:

Welcome to the show, Vicki.

Vicki von Holzhausen:

Thank you so much for having me.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

I am so thrilled to have you on Hitting The Mark. We just realized a couple of minutes ago that we both graduated from ArtCenter College of Design in the same year, which is really wild. And I’m not going to say what year that was, because that is going to reveal a bit too much about our respective ages. But let me just start off this episode by reading a couple of quotes from some publications about you and your eponymous brand. “Vicki von Holzhausen mastered the art of marrying sustainability and style.” That was Robb Report. And Forbes said, “Vicki von Holzhausen makes vegan leather luxurious.” Fast Company said, “This vegan leather feels so real,” and I love that, “PETA might just throw paint at you.”

So your designs are made from Technik-Leather, 100% animal free and sustainable leather alternative that maintains the look and feel of real letter, but it possesses greater benefits. You also just launched the bamboo-based Banbū Leather line. Before you started your brand, you worked as a designer for luxury automotive brands like Audi and Mercedes. So I can kind of see how there was a lot of leather involved in luxury cars and how that may have translated into your urge to create something new. Tell us how your brand came about. When and why did you have that aha moment and went to work on it?

Vicki von Holzhausen:

Yeah. It’s been a journey, and like most journeys, it’s not a straight line. So yeah, I started as a car designer and I actually went to school for automotive design. I grew up in Pasadena. Pasadena has one of the few schools where you can actually study automotive design called ArtCenter College of Design, and it’s kind of like this very prestigious school definitely at the time. It’s kind of like the Harvard of design. And I grew up next to the school. I started going there when I was 13 years old, taking classes, learning about design and I knew right away, this was my path. And car design was so interesting to me because it’s the most complex product that you can design. It combines so many different things, like the art or the sculptural elements of the actual car, plus the engineering aspects and packaging, and also kind of an idea of what people will live like in the future.

So it kind of embodies generational like zeitgeist, right? So it kind of represents the mood of the times, and it was completely intriguing to me. So I studied car design and I ended up working for the German automakers Audi first and then Mercedes. And I think we spoke a little bit earlier about how I was studying in Switzerland as well, and this was campus, and that kind of segued me into loving, falling in love with, and being very intrigued by German design and sort of like this Bauhaus movement and particularly sort of the Dieter Rams way of thinking about design. A piece of his philosophy has to do with sustainability, functionality and just authentic letting the product just sort of do what it’s made to do and not sort of overbaking the idea. Right? I think that that was always formative in the way that I started as a designer.

And so when I went to Germany and after that, through my career, I was very intrigued by all of those philosophies and I was so impressed by the way, the thought process when living in Germany and the focus on sustainability and the impact of a product on the environment. Germany and I’m sure Austria, where you come from, is so focused on each consumer’s impact into the environment, and it just feeds into the sort of design philosophy there. And the customer back then, and this was quite a while ago, they were asking… They were really ahead of the curve. They were concerned for the environment and they were really asking the hard questions of the automaker, like, “Why does it take 20 hides of leather to upholster a luxury car interior?” And you’d see that with the offerings that these manufacturers were giving their customers, they would have to offer cloth seats or other options because the customer really kind of demanded that.

And going back and then working, I was recruited to work for General Motors advanced concept design after that, and was very happy to, at one point, move back to California where I’m from. But the philosophy was really different and I feel like Europeans were kind of, sort of ahead of the curve as far as they’re concerned for the environment, and of course it has to do with the fact that the countries are smaller and they have to really care for what they have and really understand where every product goes at the end of its lifespan. Right? So going to America, I brought that philosophy with me, and just to also back up, there was a convergence between my personal philosophy. I was always interested in environmentalism and I was a vegetarian from the age of 19 and then became actually a vegan throughout the process of creating this brand because I was kind of convinced by the data and switched over. I converted myself. But it was kind of this long journey of always being interested in these subjects, and I definitely saw an opportunity with the leather alternative space.

When you dig into it and when I was digging into it as a designer, you just see the tremendous amount of impact that it creates for the environment. And then seeing sort of the trajectory towards veganism and alternatives, alternative protein of course led the path about six years ago, I saw an opportunity to really impact a space that didn’t have a lot of great thought around it. So I created the brand. When I launched it in 2015, I didn’t think that anybody would really consider vegan leather as something that was high tech or could be better than leather as far as performance. And it was a journey to sort of try to understand what the customer wanted, if it was feasible for the customer, and sure enough, it has been. It was a very different climate in 2015, right? Vegan collections and vegan leather or alternative leather wasn’t something that was so prevalent in the marketplace. So yeah, I think that maybe that answers a little bit about how my path was formed and how I came about this idea in the first place.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

Absolutely. No, this was wonderful and I love how it all connects back to the origins of what you learned along the way and being exposed to different cultures and bringing that back in into the US and trying to leave a mark. Let’s talk about the Conscious Code, which seems to be the brand’s guiding principles or maybe I would even call it a brand promise. What is it? What does it entail? And why was it important for you to spell it out on your website?

Vicki von Holzhausen:

Yeah. I’m so glad you found the Conscious Code. So it’s this idea that we shouldn’t just create products to create more products. Right? It’s this idea that you want to create something with true value, value as far as aesthetic and functional, but also value for the future. And so it’s the code of conduct that’s represented in all of our products. And of course it’s a veganism, animal friendly, low carbon footprint. Kind of low carbon footprint is a huge subject and it’s probably our guiding light as far as the brand goes. But also Conscious Code represents ethically made, fair wages, minimum waste, which is amazing when you’re dealing with fabric, as opposed to leather hides. There’s a tremendous amount of waste when you’re cutting leather with patterns. It also has to do with non-toxic inputs, and we give back into our community with each sale of our product on the website. So all of those things create a code of conduct that is our North Star.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

I love it and I always think it’s so fascinating talking to founders, like yourself, about how the industry actually works behind the scenes, because as consumers, we only know the buzzwords. Right? So if we think about your product, we think about, “Oh, it’s vegan leather. Oh, that’s good. That’s positive.” Right? “No animals were slaughtered,” and that’s kind of the end of it. But for you, there was so much happening with the carbon footprint and with all of these insights that you gained as you were working on this new product that a lot of customers would never know. And so I loved seeing that conduct and understanding, learning more about how a lot of other products in that space are being created that we would never know about.

Vicki von Holzhausen:

Yeah. I mean, there’s a tremendous amount of research that goes into each of our material developments, and I think you mentioned that we do develop all of our materials from the ground up. We’re not picking anything off the shelf. It’s sort of built from the fiber level through the chemistry on up. And we think through, like I said, sort of internally as far as materials go. We look for a low carbon footprint, but what does that mean as far as sustainability goes? And there’s many different facets of low carbon footprint. One area that we look into is landfill diversion. So we achieved this through our focus on developments with high recycled content. So Technik-Leather uses recycled plastic water bottles, which are so abundant on this Earth. We really try to steer away from any virgin materials. So that’s sort of the concept there.

And then the other piece is low petroleum content. So even though we’re using recycled plastic water bottles for the input, it is non-virgin, so we’re using basically trash to create the foundation for that material. And then on the top coat, we’ve innovated a chemistry which is based in plant-based inputs. Right? So plant-based chemistry. And then we’re trying to solve to 100% plant, but it’s still in the testing phase and innovations phase. We call it our innovation lab. So the idea here is to minimize the petroleum content as much as possible, but to maintain performance because performance is a piece of sustainability as well. So you don’t want your product to fall apart after a short time. You want it to live its full lifespan.

And then another piece of the carbon footprint is, what happens at the end of the life, end of product life? Where does it go? And unfortunately, most products go into a landfill and sometimes, they go into the ocean, right? So we design for that, and what we do is we use a proprietary biodegradation technology in certain materials if it seems like the appropriate application. And what happens is a plastic water bottle takes 450 years to 500 years to biodegrade even in a landfill condition, and with the technology, it takes about two years to biodegrade. And that also, it gives the opportunity to not form any microplastics, which is very important when using plastic components. So we think about the product from the inception, through the life cycle, through the lifespan, the performance aspect, and then also the end of life, what happens when the customer throws it away.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

Absolutely remarkable. And I started talking to more and more founders that have that ambition to think about this, that 360 life cycle, and it’s a very positive thing to hear that happening in the industry because as you mentioned, it’s not easy. It’s like there are a lot of components to it and it’s constant innovation to bring that thinking into a product. Your husband also came from the automotive industry, and I believe he is the chief designer at Tesla where he designed three models, including the Model 3. Was he a co-creator with your brand, or did Tesla keep him too busy? Or did he have any impact on it too? Was it a collaboration effort? I just assume two designers coming from the same background that there must be a little bit of commingling.

Vicki von Holzhausen:

Oh, no. Franz stays out of this.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

I love this.

Vicki von Holzhausen:

Yes. He says to me all the time that he doesn’t understand fashion. Yeah. He stays out of this. It’s definitely, we have an amazing team and yeah. I mean, it’s my baby. So the team is great. It’s very diverse and growing, and reach out to me if you’re interested in this space. We’re always trying to find amazing people to work with us, but yeah. No, he’s not involved whatsoever.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

Yeah, no. That’s great, but obviously you’re sharing the last name. Now, the last name became your brand. And we chatted a little bit about this in the beginning because here’s von Holzhausen talking to Geyrhalter. Right? So we had to at least chat about this. But on the one hand, the brand must have been at least associated with your husband a little bit, because he’s a big name in the automotive design space and also with your former personal brand as a fellow automotive designer. And it’s not the easiest to say, spell and recall unless you have a home advantage like myself as a native German speaker, but maybe therein lies the magic since it sounds very high-end and it definitely stands out. How did you decide on this big step of using your last name as the brand name?

Vicki von Holzhausen:

Yeah. This is a really important piece because I was kind of joking around with you earlier that marketers and other people keep trying to get us to change the name of the brand. And I feel very strongly about the fact that I put my name behind the product, because I’m sort of the kind of person that’s in it for the long game. Right? This is not sort of one of these things like, “Oh, it’s a fun idea. Let’s build this brand and flip it and make a lot of money,” and we’re out. I think that the idea here is to create a brand and a company that solves real-world problems that are necessary to solve, and that’s why I put the family name, the name behind it. The name is not a name that is flighty, here today, gone tomorrow. It’s something that… It’s a family name and it kind of creates an integrity that I stand behind what we build.

And I think that means something today, and I think when so many are in it with a greenwashing approach or sort of like a quick flip kind of approach with sort of like a very marketed angle, I definitely don’t take that approach. And long game is harder. You’ll grind it out a lot and it hasn’t been an easy sort of like… Again, we’re trying to convince people to change their habits and introduce them to something very different and in a way counter-cultural, but yeah, that’s a sort of roundabout way of describing why I decided to use the name.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

No, and I think, I mean, you went straight to the point. Right? It’s a lot about accountability and about being transparent. And I mean, it’s kind of like the old saying, “You put your name on the door.” Right? And that’s what I did when I started my design agency back in the day, was Geyrhalter Design. No one could pronounce it, but that was okay. It was unique. And then as we grew, it turned into Geyrhalter & Company, but there was always this sense of not only ownership, but it accountability at all times. Right? And I think for a fashion brand today, launching today, like you alluded to, it’s really important. It’s not an Instagram brand, where it’s here today, it’s gone tomorrow, and then you just don’t know what happened with it.

But talking about Instagram actually for a second, how important was Instagram during the launch of your brand? Because there such a power in the platform for consumer brands to spread the word in ways that were just unimaginable just a decade ago. And I know that your brand is doing really, really well on Instagram. It’s a very visual brand. It’s a very visual product. How important was it during the first week or months?

Vicki von Holzhausen:

Well, I think all of those channels are hugely important because it’s our communication. So let’s say, I don’t have… I came from the auto industry. In a way, I’m an outsider into the fashion industry, right? So I don’t have sort of like an in with the fashion editors when I first started, or a way to get press or speak about what we’re trying to do. So it’s amazing that now we can market directly to the customer. So all of these channels, and especially TikTok now, are amazing ways to reach the customer through the language, the unique language of each of these platforms. So, yeah. I mean, you have to sort of figure out how to use all of those channels and help the customer communicate to the pools of customers that you’re trying to reach through the language of the platform.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

And maybe I misread this but I believe I read last night that in the beginning, you kind of like soft launched the brand where you just already had a pretty good amount of followers, some set of friends, extended friends, and you had a pretty good amount of followers before you actually launched a product. And I believe you said that that actually really helped you in the beginning to gain ground quickly. Is that correct or am I making this up?

Vicki von Holzhausen:

No, we did. We had… So we launched in 2015 and I started posting content on Instagram and talking about what we’re trying to do and try to kind of create some hype around it and it helped. And you just couldn’t believe it where we turned the website on and people actually bought stuff. So it was kind of amazing.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

It’s magical.

Vicki von Holzhausen:

Definitely, it came from Instagram, and I think… Who was the creative director… I don’t know if she still is at the time, but Eva Chen posted about our collection right from the get-go, so that really helped. Yeah.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

Yeah. And that’s what I alluded to because I think that is the power of social media these days, that you didn’t do the old school thinking of, “I’m not going to share anything. This is all behind closed doors.” And then there’s the big launch day and we’re just all waiting and nothing happens. Right? So it’s different. I mean, you can really kind of like create the buzz until that day comes. Talking about buzz, you have a line of Apple Watch and MacBook accessories that you created for Apple. That’s quite an accomplishment, especially knowing that you’ve only been around as a brand for 5, 6 years. Also from an impact point of view, it must be amazing for you to feel like you have that big impact with an audience, like Apple’s. How did the collaboration come about?

Vicki von Holzhausen:

It was like one of those random things. I’m very interested in Apple. So Steve Jobs was sort of my hero growing up. I’m talking about Dieter Rams, and of course Steve jobs was that kind of same kind of ethos. Right? And it was always a dream of mine to get involved with Apple on some level. And so I tried to find a connection, and it was one of those random things. A guy I knew had a girlfriend at Apple. And so I was like, “Oh, can you give me an introduction?” And of course begrudgingly, she didn’t really want to. It was like, okay, finally, I kind of went back and forth, and she gave me an introduction to the merchant team. And from there, I just kind of took it and ran with it. I told them about what we’re trying to do. I threw some product in the car and drove up there. I’m in Malibu and they’re up in… Where are they? Up in the Bay Area. Well, they’re in Cupertino, right?

So I drove up there and I showed them what we’re doing, what I was doing. And they really loved the product. They loved the philosophy. They liked the sustainability. And so it was a long process because Apple doesn’t just take something that you have, I mean, typically, or I don’t think that they typically take something that you have off your website, out of your collection and say, “Okay. We’re going to put this in an Apple store.” It’s a collaborative effort. What do they need? What’s in line with their customer? And so I worked on this concept of creating an accessory for their watch bands, because they had nothing. It’s the Watch Band Portfolio, and it’s a very simple accessory that mimics actually the way that they display their watch bands in store, in this sort of… You have to kind of see it visually, but they’re like a louvers that the bands sit in perfectly. And it’s a beautiful little accessory that zips around, and it’s kind of a display case for the watch bands.

But it was a totally new product for them, and it was really awesome to launch with a completely new concept, and it’s done really well. That was in 2019, and it’s been in store and quite successful since then. And now we have something like 20 products at Apple, from MacBook sleeves or cases to iPads and another watch storage device. And yeah, it’s been a great road with them, and they really appreciate the perspective, the company’s perspective, and I think that they’re really supportive of younger brands with a mission.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

And I think that’s so important to say too, because there’s still that notion for some entrepreneurs, just a few, I guess, at this point, where how important really is the mission and how important is it to… How important is sustainability, but it directly impacts growth. And I keep saying that, and I mean, you live it. Right? I mean, being able to innovate with Apple on that level, which was a dream of yours for a long time, like it would be with anyone who grew up in that era, that might’ve never happened if you wouldn’t have entered the marketplace with such a bold vision where you really want to innovate on a material level.

Talking about innovating on a material level and talking about Apple, there’s a direct relation to my next question. You launched a really interesting initiative last year. I’m not sure if it’s ongoing or if it was just a one-off. You had a call of entries out that was seeking material innovators from all paths of life and corners of the earth. You also had an impressive jury and that’s where Apple comes in, because you had the advertising legend Lee Clow on the jury. How did that initiative go? I thought it was such an interesting idea. What was the result?

Vicki von Holzhausen:

Yeah. It was a really interesting time and I loved doing that project. It was right at the beginning of COVID and you have to remember back then, it seems like an eternity ago, but everything kind of slowed down. Right? We’re selling stuff on the website. We have a product that we’re shipping all over the world for Apple as well. And all of a sudden, supply chains start to shut down, and everything starts to slow down, and nobody knows what’s going to happen, and the world starts to shut down. Right? So it was this really scary moment, but I really thought about that as an opportunity, because it was almost like there was a dying of the old. Right? And through this situation, there was an opportunity for what I would call new paradigm companies and a new world kind of company to come forward. And I really believe that we are part of that energy or that group of companies that are emerging from a crisis. Right? I mean, we clearly were alive before the crisis. We were a brand before the crisis, but now people’s perspective has really shifted. Right?

And so at that moment during shutdown, I was like, “Well, we could kind of shut down and take a break and see what happens, or we can try to lead some initiative or lead away and lead some communication.” And we really talked about and I really thought what is the core of our brand and what is the core of our mission. And at our very essence, we are material innovators and we use the material to build great product throughout a collection, and we show how the material functions through the collection. And so we know that there’s a lot of people out there during COVID, at the beginning especially, that were doing the same thing. They were innovating in order to survive. They had to do makeshift things because everything was shut down and they have to think of their life differently. So everybody became a material innovator.

So we wanted to connect our mission with the mission of everything that we were seeing around us. And so we decided to launch a really fun competition and open it to everyone and see synergistically what people were coming up with, and we gathered friends from all walks of industries and life into the jury. And we ran it for a few weeks, and it was just a lot of fun. We did a cool video with our friend Angus Wall. Angus is this amazing artist, collaborator, and he does… If you know something about Angus, he’s worked on The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo and Fight Club and Se7en. He’s amazing, right? He got involved. He did a little short film for us, or his team did. Right? And it was like this really cool art moment of inspiration as it usually happens in the midst of a crisis. Right? I think it’s been cool to see how artists and designers have confronted this moment in time, and I hope we are moving into a new world because of it.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

I believe so. And I think, I mean, that is such a great way of using your brand as a platform during that time. And like you said, that was a time where everyone started to really think about a lot of things. We had time to think again. Right? And actually, I, myself, am currently knee-deep in starting another company, and I’m going down the functional product route like yourself, but it’s also deeply rooted in design, although not in fashion accessory, but in the music lifestyle category. So it’s exhilarating to say the least, but it 100% came out of the pandemic, where I saw a need and I’m like, “Let’s solve this.” I believe that you self-funded your company in the beginning, obviously in the beginning. Are there any tips for myself or for any self-funded entrepreneur maybe how to keep costs low despite launching a luxury brand, or how to not get overwhelmed, or how to get the first press? Any thoughts that you can reassure me of my idea that self-funding really is the right way to go?

Vicki von Holzhausen:

I don’t know if it’s the right way to go. I decided to do it this way, and it’s been a hard road. Self-funding is definitely… Bootstrapping is a really tough road. You have to… I used to basically do everything for the company, which is great because you learn each discipline. Right? You learn the marketing side. You learn the production. My expertise is design, engineering and manufacturing, but I ended up having to learn all these other facets that I would have never learned if I hadn’t self-funded. So I think that’s really useful, especially when you start bringing on your team. Right? You know the right questions to ask, and you really understand what the purpose of each of these facets is.

And I think it’s really actually good to keep it lean because you end up going down these different holes, which I’ve gone down to like, “Oh, let’s spend a lot of money on this.” Oh, but what was that good for? Right? Especially with marketing, marketing is this endless pit, right? And to try to be authentic and try to capture in a raw way is also really great. Try to capture the customer where they really are at that level and be authentic and a little raw and not have to be overproduced. Today, we shoot a lot of our imagery just on the iPhone. We don’t really spend a lot of resources on expensive photoshoots or fancy photographers, or maybe it’s to our detriment. I don’t know. Maybe we’ll change.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

You can’t tell. You can’t tell. Yeah.

Vicki von Holzhausen:

Yeah. You can’t tell. And I think that the customer likes that. They like the authenticity, the rawness, and that’s sort of cool. I mean, if I can describe myself, I’m definitely more like punk rock than produced pop music. Right? We’re definitely down that road, and I think that’s why it’s, I think, a really great thing to self-fund, but it’s not an easy path.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

Oh, that I’m sure, but I do appreciate some of the empowering and encouraging words there. So yeah. No, it’s going to be a journey. I’m really excited about it. So since you… Because I talk about branding all day long, it’s nice if I actually create my own brand along the ways, and I’m going to have to live up to everything that I write and talk. So that’s going to be super exciting. But you worked with some of the biggest brands in the world. You now launched your own brand. You’ve been living and breathing it for the last five, six years. What does often misunderstood word of branding mean to you? What is branding to you?

Vicki von Holzhausen:

Yeah. I mean, that’s really interesting. The best definition of branding that I’ve ever heard is a promise that when kept creates preference, and I’ve kept that in my mind. So you make a brand promise and you keep it, you’re consistent and you’re authentic about it, and then it creates loyalty from the customer. So I think that to me is branding.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

And I mean, it is true because that’s why you created the Conscious Code. Right? There’s a promise that you need to keep and people know that you are putting it out there. Right? So it is honest. If you could describe your brand in one or two words, for instance, Everlane is radical transparency, and TOMS is all about the wow service, is there a word or the two words that you can say, “Look, if I would take everything through a filter, and then I can only use one or two words to describe the entire brand,” which I know for you stands for a lot, do you know what it could be?

Vicki von Holzhausen:

Well, it is sustainability, but that’s kind of a fluffy word. Right? What does it even mean? And I think that I try to explain that, what does that mean to us with the low carbon footprint and all the different facets that go underneath that. So I think ultimately that’s what our vision is, to create something that is long-lasting and sustainable, and we’re trying to solve a real-world problem. I mean, if we want to get deep into the mission, our mission is to make leather extinct. Right? So we want to replace leather with something sustainable and truly sustainable, again, low carbon footprint, low petroleum content, biodegradable, high plant content, all of those things. So, yeah. Sustainability would be the word.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

Yeah, yeah. No, no, absolutely. I mean, that’s the foundation of the brand. As we’re slowly coming to an end of our time together, do you have any other final thoughts or brand advice as you were creating your brand over the last years specifically for founders or marketers that you feel like might want to share?

Vicki von Holzhausen:

I think I kind of alluded to it at the beginning. I think it’s important to actually look at a relevant problem to solve as far as… Branding, marketing, those are sort of like words that sometimes get us into trouble because maybe they imply something that’s inauthentic, like you’re trying to conjure up something or invent something that really doesn’t need to be invented. And I think it’s really true, and we’re all sort of guilty of that because it’s kind of fun to do it. Right? But I feel like trying to take the long-view approach to really understand a problem, I mean, we only live once and we want to make sure that we leave a planet that has a future for our children and for the next generations past that.

So I think that taking the long-view approach, understanding are you in it… What is your real goal here? Are you in it for just a quick sort of ride and flip this and go off to the next thing? I don’t know. I think that we need to think more seriously about brands these days and to really create something with longevity and integrity and that solves real-world problems because we definitely have a lot of issues to solve.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

That is for sure. Absolutely, yeah. Talking about issues to solve, what is next for the von Holzhausen brand that you can potentially share with us? What are you excited about in the next six months?

Vicki von Holzhausen:

Oh my gosh, we’re going a hundred miles an hour. We’re doing so many cool things. I think that what’s really exciting is that we just launched our innovation lab. We’re in the process of sort of flushing it out and putting it together. We’re building out an amazing team of material scientists, which is really great, and it builds our integrity, I think, trying to solve for some of the issues that we’re seeing within the materials space. So innovation lab, huge for us, and then working with large-scale companies on that initiative and supplying actual material to those companies is what we’re doing.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

Oh, that is super exciting. That’s a logical next step that a lot of people would actually not have had the logic to think about, but that is fantastic too. That’s great, music to my ears. Where can people follow you either personally or get to know the von Holzhausen brand? And I guess the next question for a lot of my listeners would be, do you ship internationally?

Vicki von Holzhausen:

Yes, we do and we’re happy to do so. You can find us on vonholzhausen.com. Maybe you have to look up how to spell that word, but I think we come up right away in every search engine. And then we’re pretty active on Instagram, on Twitter, and we just launched TikTok, which is really exciting.

Fabian Geyrhalter:

Perfect. That is fantastic. Well, Vicki, thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule, not that we know what you’re doing and then what you’re busy working on. It was such a great pleasure to have you on the show.

Vicki von Holzhausen:

Likewise. Thank you so much, Fabian.